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Cyphotilapia Talk General Discussion of Cyphotilapia frontosa & gibberosa.


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  #1  
Old 07-03-2006, 09:49 PM
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Default Crossing of fish.

just curious to what people think about mixing.
at what point is it OK?
at what point is it bad?
here are some examples.

Zaire Kitumba Cypho x Calvus................i'm sure we all think its bad.
Zaire Kitumba Cypho x Burundi Cypho......I'm sure we all think its bad.
Zaire Kitumba Cypho x Zaire North..........bad, cause it is burundi like.
Zaire Kitumba Cypho x mpimbwe Cypho...both gibberosa, but still bad.

Zaire Kitumba x Zaire Moba...................
Zaire kitumba regular x Zaire Kitumba rick Boester type.....

just wonder what people think of the last 2?
mpimbwe is a gibberosa, just like Kitumba and Moba, but i bet most think that crossing mpimbwe with Kitumba is worse than Kitumba x Moba.
And what about Kitumba and Rick Boester's kitumba?
Would that be OK?
What if my kitumba look 100% like your Moba, is that OK?
If my kitumba don't look like your Kitumba, should we keep them apart?

This is what i think for what it is worth.
I think all collection points should be kept separate, because we don't know if they are different.
I think Moba and Kitumba are simply collection points of the same fish, but still should not be crossed.
I also think regular Kitumba should not be crossed with Rick Boester's Kitumba because his type are outstanding.
Does not hurt anything to try and not mix them.
But it could hurt things if we simply cross things because they look the same, or we think we can make them look better by crossing them.
Not the same as line breeding a single varient for best features that is OK in my opinion.
just like to hear others thoughts.
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Old 07-03-2006, 09:57 PM
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1000% never will cross breed in my life i dont like the idea at all

but i know it is going to happen and more then likly all ready done

but i am against it
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Old 07-03-2006, 10:41 PM
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I agree.

Whilst we have what I would define as limited knowledge surrounding the varients, we should not cross breed. Though I am not sure it would be so bad, rather just bad in the sense that it will be hard at a later date if we are informed that these are really different sub-species and we have been cross breeding.

That being said, I remain quite sceptical about whether they are all different sub-species. I suspect the $$$ drives this issue.

Just MHO and 2 cents worth.
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Old 07-03-2006, 11:34 PM
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Quote:
Zaire Kitumba Cypho x Calvus................i'm sure we all think its bad.
I'd like to see what turns out here.

I'd avoid the last combo. Cypho people like their strains clean. Those Boester kitumbas are something else. Someday I'll get some. Although that only leaves inbreeding as an option. I guess that's another issue though.
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Old 07-03-2006, 11:40 PM
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I find these kind of discussions interesting and to some degree amusing in that what is often expressed in terms of strong opinion and even dogmatism is probably a question of aesthetics more than science, meaning aesthetics in terms of perceived purity of genetic lines over thousands or millions of years, as much as aesthetics in terms of color and beauty.

This is not to say I disagree with above opinions, or the desire to preserve the subtle natural differences that make these fish beautiful or interesting, only the attempts that occasionally try to elevate these differences to the scale of some virtually eternal law of nature with an implication of an equally forceful moral imperative.

In reality, natural processes and forces probably have and probably will continue to mix, isolate, and remix the genetic lines of which we make so much. These forces include those that are strictly genetic as well as those environmental and geological. To make strident or dogmatic proclamations concerning these is relatively futile, as the scientists themselves disagree concerning them, due basically to not having a complete enough picture or exhaustive enough evidence on which to base any unchanging or unchallenged consensus, in spite of what the popular media, whether print or broadcast, is likely to publish.

Beside natural processes of hybridization, currently being debated by geneticists, specifically regarding African lake species, including cyphotilapia, there are other natural genetic processes, such as genetic drift and gene flow, and genetic responsiveness and adaption to environmental, geological, or even cosmic forces-- and the fact is, no one completely understands genetics.

My exhibit A in this regard is the proclamations made just a very few years ago in connection with study of the human genome that most of our dna is 'junk' dna that no longer serves any purpose. Uh, that would be a huge wrong buzzer to that, as further study is revealing numerous structures on multiple scales of this huge portion of our dna (patterns closely matching those of language and music, for example) and beginning to find examples of critical functions in sequences of this so called junk dna.

The relevance of this is simply as one example of how incomplete our knowledge of the natural world remains, despite popular perceptions to the contrary, and, consequently, the practicality of maintaining a flexible view of the natural history of the African great lakes (and most scientific subjects) since a lot of what we know about the natural world and cosmos at large is, in fact, tentative.
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Old 07-04-2006, 12:28 AM
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I appreciate the input from Neutrinoman??? Anyways, very interesting point of view.
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Old 07-04-2006, 12:51 AM
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If somebody did breed a Moba X Kitumba do you think the fish would be any less of a Zaire?
I don't think the fry would be any different as far as strenth or stripes or color or size or whatever.. The only thing that would be different would be it's worth to us. $$$$$

I believe in keeping our fish as pure as possible but non of us really know where our fish were collected. How do I know my Moba aren't really Kits simply because they were the hot item at the time? It goes back and forth.

I choose to keep my fish seperate from each other and would never mix them. Of course I only have Moba and Mpimbs anyway. I don't have every variant like some fanatics. I wish I did though!




Oh yea, I think if somebody got some of Ricks fish, they would know what they had and would never taint that line.
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Old 07-04-2006, 12:56 AM
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Why don't we keep everything the wat nature intended it to be. No more cross breeding or making new fish. Just leave it alone
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Old 07-04-2006, 02:36 AM
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I think it's really hard to be truly certain where most the original wild-caughts came from in the first place. Unless we were on one of those boats and collecting those fish..........how can you be certain? Sure, the best you can go on is the reliability and reputation of the collector, the dealer that brought them into your country........

That being said, I'm keeping my mobas as pure as they can be. If I have the opportunity to trade some of my moba fry out with others to bring in new blood, I will.............just to keep the strain going.

I'm guessing fronts don't migrate in the big lake..........they probably establish their territorities and colonies around where they spawned. If there is an adequate supply of food, cover, mates........they stay in their area and spawn with their variety.
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Old 07-04-2006, 05:48 AM
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you guys that are trying to keep your fish in a pure state are only believing what you hear. this is a moba, kapampa, kitumba. i say dont delve into to deep, because we ALL ( except that went to the lake to collect) have to believe what was said to us. if i was told i have moba, then by god i have moba. now arent all the different varieties still originating from one fish, and so TR6 says what if it happened in the aquarium? its no different than in the lake. the fish know no boundries, so they can hook up with different ladies. dont the outed males have to go somewhere??????? all i have to say is just dont look to deep into it and enjoy what you were told you have.
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