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Cyphotilapia Species, Variants & Collection Points Discussion of Cyphotilapia frontosa & gibberosa Species, Variants & Collection Points.


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Old 02-10-2018, 06:11 AM
epsilon20
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Default Help with identification - Kapamba or Moba?

Hi guys,

I'm relatively new to the forums having read through the pages for years but never posted anything

I recently got my hands on some Fish and wanted to help in identifying the collection points so I can add the same type of fish and hopefully breed them. I was told 4 were Kapamba and 2 were Moba. The the largest male & Female being Moba but want a second opinion.

Could I get some expert advice identifying my fish

http://i1383.photobucket.com/albums/...vvry1.jpg.html

Thanks Guys
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Old 02-10-2018, 09:42 AM
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The reality is gibberosa from different locations are so close in appearance it's hard to distinguish them. Moba will sometimes be more purple but not always-- this may be because "moba" have been collected from more than one spot. Individuals differ and they can look different in different moods or on different foods. You can make some generalizations, like the Mikula that have been imported tend to be have deep blues with bold stripes or that Moba or Kitumba can have more purple (years ago they used to argue over which one was the purple Zaire), but individual variation means it would be very difficult to take a random individual and say it's from this or that collection point with much certainty. Because of this some feel the differences between collection points is merely marketing, though, for example, cichlid writer Eric Genevelle has dived in various locations and described seeing differences in color and some importers who have seen hundreds or thousands have said they can distinguish them. Then you have cichlid expert Ad Konings who says they're all the same, though Ad doesn't think they're should be two species of Cyphotilapia (frontosa and gibberosa) in the first place, and has long been at odds with the official taxonomy on this and with those who feel that populations from different locations matter.

The collection point thing has been a debate among hobbyists for a long time. My argument is that current science, especially gene mapping, has changed things, and populations of many animals that look nearly identical can turn out to be genetically very diverse. In fact some virtually identical 'looking' animals end up classified as different species genetically. (a LOT has been written about this in recent years using terms like 'cryptic diversity'). So this means we can't be sure how much true diversity there is between different populations of a particular type (Zaire, Burundi, Tanzanian, etc.) until genetic testing is done.

Basically this means relying on what the seller says, or even better is if someone can prove some provenance, has import documentation, etc. Or in your case, the seller telling you some were kapampa and some moba instead of simply representing them as all moba (not that one or the other is better, but moba are better known) probably speaks to his honesty.
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Old 02-10-2018, 09:16 PM
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Wow! Your replies are always so thought out and well presented! We are lucky youíre here to help with your experience and knowledge. Iíve bought Ad Konigís latest book and have read a lot of it. The experience of hobbyists keeping these fish in captivity is invaluable.
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Old 02-10-2018, 10:01 PM
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Thanks, Nanook... some of it's just passing along stuff I've learned here over the years.
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Old 02-11-2018, 08:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neutrinoman View Post
The reality is gibberosa from different locations are so close in appearance it's hard to distinguish them. Moba will sometimes be more purple but not always-- this may be because "moba" have been collected from more than one spot. Individuals differ and they can look different in different moods or on different foods. You can make some generalizations, like the Mikula that have been imported tend to be have deep blues with bold stripes or that Moba or Kitumba can have more purple (years ago they used to argue over which one was the purple Zaire), but individual variation means it would be very difficult to take a random individual and say it's from this or that collection point with much certainty. Because of this some feel the differences between collection points is merely marketing, though, for example, cichlid writer Eric Genevelle has dived in various locations and described seeing differences in color and some importers who have seen hundreds or thousands have said they can distinguish them. Then you have cichlid expert Ad Konings who says they're all the same, though Ad doesn't think they're should be two species of Cyphotilapia (frontosa and gibberosa) in the first place, and has long been at odds with the official taxonomy on this and with those who feel that populations from different locations matter.

The collection point thing has been a debate among hobbyists for a long time. My argument is that current science, especially gene mapping, has changed things, and populations of many animals that look nearly identical can turn out to be genetically very diverse. In fact some virtually identical 'looking' animals end up classified as different species genetically. (a LOT has been written about this in recent years using terms like 'cryptic diversity'). So this means we can't be sure how much true diversity there is between different populations of a particular type (Zaire, Burundi, Tanzanian, etc.) until genetic testing is done.

Basically this means relying on what the seller says, or even better is if someone can prove some provenance, has import documentation, etc. Or in your case, the seller telling you some were kapampa and some moba instead of simply representing them as all moba (not that one or the other is better, but moba are better known) probably speaks to his honesty.

Thank you very much neutrinoman, indeed a well thought out response so does this mean I can add more fish to my group and not have to worry about their of spring?
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Old 02-11-2018, 09:43 PM
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so does this mean I can add more fish to my group and not have to worry about their of spring?
It depends. If you end up with fry from crossed moba/kapampa and wanted to sell them they'd should be listed generically as Zaires-- or you could specify the cross. Either way would limit your market and bring down the price a bit compared to having a specific collection point. A casual buyer might not mind the distinction, but it would make a difference to most knowledgeable hobbyists who know about collection points.

It might seem like a contradiction, since 'moba' don't come from Moba. Moba is not really Cyphotilapia habitat, it's a sandy beach that doesn't have fronts, so moba have been collected from more than one location over the years. They were originally named by African Diving, who wanted to keep their true location secret from other exporters. However, moba aren't collected from Kapampa, so you couldn't call kapampa moba (if that makes sense).
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Old 02-12-2018, 01:54 AM
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Thanks again Neutrinoman Iíll have to think about this more then. I really want to add to my group but donít want to end up with cross breeds ideallly. I might reach out to the seller again and try get more info on their origin then decide.
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